[Daanz-dip] In response to Doug

Jason Whitby jasonmwhitby at yahoo.com
Wed Sep 13 19:31:59 EST 2006 

I second these thoughts.

I intend to try an make the trip to Wollongong in December this year.  AoR, I'm in.

Jason.
--- Andrew Goff <acgoff at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Good idea Sean, you've buried the other Sydney tournament now lets make sure 
> the Gong one gets killed off too.
> 
> For someone who complains so bitterly any time anyone criticises your 
> decision making and raises "lack of tournament organisers" as an objection, 
> your outburst is both inappropriate and inconsistent.
> 
> Greg, I am far more likely to attend your event if it is in no way 
> affiliated with the DAANZ. You are right, I do love AoR (and Poker).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >From: "Sean Colman" <sean at seropeco.com.au>
> >Reply-To: DAANZ-dip Email Discussion Group for Diplomacy in Australia & 
> >NewZealand <daanz-dip at daanz.org.au>
> >To: "DAANZ-dip Email Discussion Group for Diplomacy in Australia & 
> >NewZealand"<daanz-dip at daanz.org.au>
> >Subject: Re: [Daanz-dip] In response to Doug
> >Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:57:47 +1000
> >
> >We currently have tournaments at Pubs & Clubs, which are licensed Premises,
> >and do not have the restriction Greg is putting on under 16's. Surely it is
> >a Parental Decision to have their children play at such a tournament where
> >there is alcohol served. A tournament that specifically excludes certain
> >players will result in positional changes in the Bismark Cup and further
> >deny these players of a chance to improve their master point ranking. I 
> >also
> >note that there have been more than 10 players under the age of 16 that 
> >have
> >played in at least one tournament this year. Some have played more, some 
> >are
> >even in the top in the Bismark Cup.
> >
> >So the next tournament won't allowed Blonde Haired, Blue Eyed people?
> >Women won't be allowed?
> >What if they are over 50?
> >
> >Your proposal to exclude anyone from coming along and playing a game they
> >enjoy actually sickens me.
> >
> >If you want to have a couple of social games of diplomacy with your mates,
> >and a boozey weekend, then why does it need affilliation?
> >
> >Sean
> >
> >
> >.----- Original Message -----
> >From: "William J Brown" <billious at rabbit.com.au>
> >To: <daanz-dip at daanz.org.au>
> >Cc: <Greg at cyberelectric.net.au>
> >Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:42 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Daanz-dip] In response to Doug
> >
> >
> > > Well said Greg.
> > >
> > > I agree that we should try to provide a range of tourney types (my
> > > position on scorng systems is the same), I understand the need for age
> > > limit restrictions where alcohol is involved and providing an 
> >opportunity
> > > to play other games after Dip is no different to other tourneys where
> > > we've played board games or people have gone out together to pubs and
> > > clubs etc.
> > >
> > > I hope GONCON is fun and a success. You should be thanked for providing
> > > your own place for the get together.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Bill
> > > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> > > From: "Greg Evans" <Greg at cyberelectric.net.au>
> > > Reply-To: Greg at cyberelectric.net.au,DAANZ-dip Email Discussion Group for
> > > Diplomacy in Australia & NewZealand <daanz-dip at daanz.org.au>
> > > Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:52:06 +1000
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Doug,
> > >>
> > >>Thanks for your comments.  You have raised some valid issues, though I 
> >am
> > >>dissappointed to see you urging the DAANZ committee to reject my GongCon
> > >>proposal.
> > >>
> > >>I am not trying to split the hobby at all.  I am trying to grow the 
> >hobby
> > >>through diversification.  We need to try new things and appeal to
> > >>differrent types of people if we are going to go forward.  I am not 
> >trying
> > >>to force my ideals of how to run a tournament on others, I am just 
> >trying
> > >>to offer an alternative.  To my mind, if every tournament ran with a
> > >>differrent format, differrent theme and differrent scoring system then
> > >>we'd have more fresh ideas and more of an idea about what works and what
> > >>doesnt.  People can go to the tourneys they like, and pass on the ones
> > >>they dont like.  Give them the choice and let them vote with bums on
> > >>seats.
> > >>GongCon might not be everyones 'cup of tea' but that does not make it
> > >>invalid.  The DAANZ committee needs to represent EVERYONE in the hobby,
> > >>not just those who prefer tournaments run a specific way.
> > >>
> > >>* Poker
> > >>The poker tournament was included for a couple of valid reasons :-
> > >>
> > >>1.  Recruitment - At the NSW Champs 2005, we fired up a game of Texas
> > >>Hold'em and a fair number of dippers present were very enthused.  I
> > >>figured that if Dip players showed interest in Poker, then it might be 
> >the
> > >>case that Poker players might show interest in Dip.  There are certainly 
> >a
> > >>lot of Poker players doing the rounds these days - its become a bit of a
> > >>craze.
> > >>
> > >>2.  Time Limitations - GongCon is limited in many respects by the fact
> > >>that it has only ever been held on a 2-day weekend.  To hold a 3-round
> > >>tournament therefore means you need to implement a short timedraw (which
> > >>many players hate), play the 2nd game well into the night on the 
> >Saturday
> > >>(which is bad for travellers and younger players) and/or split the 2nd
> > >>round over Sat/Sun (which has major problems if players - particularly 
> >new
> > >>players - have only come for one day).
> > >>Many players like the 'long game' version where scoring is SC based and
> > >>games are given a long time to reach conclusion.  The 'short game' is
> > >>being given a fair run by others with C-Diplo, which some people like, 
> >but
> > >>its not for everyone and once again I want to offer an alternative.  I 
> >am
> > >>implementing a weighted game scoring system to make up for the fact we
> > >>only have 2 rounds so as to keep the tournament as dynamic as possible.
> > >>A poker tournament (which may only run for an hour or two) is a lot less
> > >>time committment, so it allows Round 1 to run for longer and fills any
> > >>small perceived gap.  You could NOT fit another full round of Dip in 
> >that
> > >>space.
> > >>It is also worth noting that most tournaments I've been to do NOT run 
> >into
> > >>the night anyway - I do not recall ever having a 'dinner turn' during a
> > >>game of Tournament Dip.  The kids often have to be home for dinner or
> > >>people have planes to catch.
> > >>
> > >>* Age Restrictions
> > >>Possibly a more controversial issue, but an important one.
> > >>The introduction of age restrictions to this tournament is more to do 
> >with
> > >>the alcohol than anything.  The poker tournament is technically NOT
> > >>gambling.  It is a competition, with an entry fee, for which there is a
> > >>prize for winning.  Sound familiar ?
> > >>Call me old fashioned, but I dont believe that kids should be present at
> > >>adult parties where people may become intoxicated.  It sets a bad 
> >example
> > >>and there are too many things that can go wrong.  Clubs and pubs have 
> >age
> > >>restrictions for a reason !
> > >>Once again, there may be people who are interested in coming to a fun
> > >>Party, or BBQ for a few beers who might be favourably exposed to Dip and
> > >>get involved (how many times have you seen people show interest when we
> > >>play at club venues ?).  These same people might not be interested in a
> > >>dry event where they can hang out with 12 year olds.  Its about 
> >diversity
> > >>and broadening the appeal of dip through differrent styles.
> > >>Though it was only a secondary motivation, it is true that there was
> > >>controversy at the last GongCon because of the kids and some people have
> > >>said they are not interested in playing if the hobby is going to be
> > >>overrun by kids.  Are these people wrong ?  Is their preference invalid 
> >?
> > >>Shouldnt there be an opportunity for those people to play Dip the way 
> >they
> > >>want to within the DAANZ ?  Or are we all expected to toe the party line
> > >>and there is only one correct way ?
> > >>Personally, I feel like a paedophile when I'm trying to cajole some 
> >young
> > >>12 year old boy into doing what I want in a game of Dip.  I'd probably 
> >do
> > >>better if I brought along a bag of boiled lollies for such intimate
> > >>moments....
> > >>I know that many in the hobby dont have such morality issues, but I do.  
> >I
> > >>think it sets a bad example to young kids to see adults lying, even
> > >>cheating to get what they want.  It teaches them dangerous skills at a
> > >>formative age where they may not be able to draw the line between game
> > >>behaviour and real life behaviour.  Once again though, I am not trying 
> >to
> > >>force this on other tournaments, I'm just offerring an alternative for
> > >>people who think/feel like I do.
> > >>There are also minor issues of competancy, game quality and 
> >manipulation.
> > >>We can all claim that kids need some 'guidance' to learn the game and
> > >>should be encouraged as they are the 'future' of the hobby.  Along this
> > >>line I should bring along my neice to ADC.  She's very interested, 
> >though
> > >>only learning the game.  I'll need to give her a little bit of help and 
> >I
> > >>will assist her in writing her orders.  Thats all well and good isnt it 
> >?
> > >>Oh, I forgot to mention.....my neice is 5 months old.
> > >>In all seriousness, we need to draw the line somewhere.  Obviously we 
> >are
> > >>not going to agree about where exactly that line should exist (Age 6 ? 
> >Age
> > >>12 ? Age 16 ?) but that doesnt mean I can't have an opinion on the 
> >subject
> > >>and run GongCon accordingly.
> > >>
> > >>I'm not asking much of the DAANZ.  I'm planning to run this tournament 
> >at
> > >>a personal loss and I expect no help at all in running, nor promoting 
> >the
> > >>event.  The only thing I'm asking is that you SCORE it.  Some people are
> > >>motivated to come to tournaments by the Bismark (particularly
> > >>inter-staters).  Those handful of people might be the differrence 
> >between
> > >>the success and failure of this tournament - I believe it has helped the
> > >>ANZAC Cup get off the ground.  Dont handicapp me before I've had a 
> >chance
> > >>to get started.
> > >>
> > >>In conclusion, I think its important to grow the hobby and this proposal
> > >>for GongCon is designed for that purpose.  It just involves growing it 
> >in
> > >>a differrent direction to others.
> > >>We have already lost our Canberra tournaments, the NSW Champs is 
> >currently
> > >>homeless and in doubt for 2007 while GongCon is on the verge of
> > >>extinction.  I am seriously looking at the landscape and would not be
> > >>surprised if there isnt a tournament within 6 hours drive for me in 2007
> > >>if we keep tearing our tournaments down.
> > >>
> > >>The ADC / Albury proposal is worth a try, but lets not put all our eggs 
> >in
> > >>one basket.
> > >>
> > >>Sincerely,
> > >>Greg
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > Daanz-dip at daanz.org.au
> > > http://www.daanz.org.au/mailman/listinfo/daanz-dip
> > >
> >
> >
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> 
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