[Daanz-dip] In response to Doug

[Andrew Goff]

Good idea Sean, you've buried the other Sydney tournament now lets make sure 
the Gong one gets killed off too.

For someone who complains so bitterly any time anyone criticises your 
decision making and raises "lack of tournament organisers" as an objection, 
your outburst is both inappropriate and inconsistent.

Greg, I am far more likely to attend your event if it is in no way 
affiliated with the DAANZ. You are right, I do love AoR (and Poker).





>From: "Sean Colman" <sean at seropeco.com.au>
>Reply-To: DAANZ-dip Email Discussion Group for Diplomacy in Australia & 
>NewZealand <daanz-dip at daanz.org.au>
>To: "DAANZ-dip Email Discussion Group for Diplomacy in Australia & 
>NewZealand"<daanz-dip at daanz.org.au>
>Subject: Re: [Daanz-dip] In response to Doug
>Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:57:47 +1000
>
>We currently have tournaments at Pubs & Clubs, which are licensed Premises,
>and do not have the restriction Greg is putting on under 16's. Surely it is
>a Parental Decision to have their children play at such a tournament where
>there is alcohol served. A tournament that specifically excludes certain
>players will result in positional changes in the Bismark Cup and further
>deny these players of a chance to improve their master point ranking. I 
>also
>note that there have been more than 10 players under the age of 16 that 
>have
>played in at least one tournament this year. Some have played more, some 
>are
>even in the top in the Bismark Cup.
>
>So the next tournament won't allowed Blonde Haired, Blue Eyed people?
>Women won't be allowed?
>What if they are over 50?
>
>Your proposal to exclude anyone from coming along and playing a game they
>enjoy actually sickens me.
>
>If you want to have a couple of social games of diplomacy with your mates,
>and a boozey weekend, then why does it need affilliation?
>
>Sean
>
>
>.----- Original Message -----
>From: "William J Brown" <billious at rabbit.com.au>
>To: <daanz-dip at daanz.org.au>
>Cc: <Greg at cyberelectric.net.au>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:42 AM
>Subject: Re: [Daanz-dip] In response to Doug
>
>
> > Well said Greg.
> >
> > I agree that we should try to provide a range of tourney types (my
> > position on scorng systems is the same), I understand the need for age
> > limit restrictions where alcohol is involved and providing an 
>opportunity
> > to play other games after Dip is no different to other tourneys where
> > we've played board games or people have gone out together to pubs and
> > clubs etc.
> >
> > I hope GONCON is fun and a success. You should be thanked for providing
> > your own place for the get together.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Bill
> > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> > From: "Greg Evans" <Greg at cyberelectric.net.au>
> > Reply-To: Greg at cyberelectric.net.au,DAANZ-dip Email Discussion Group for
> > Diplomacy in Australia & NewZealand <daanz-dip at daanz.org.au>
> > Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:52:06 +1000
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>Doug,
> >>
> >>Thanks for your comments.  You have raised some valid issues, though I 
>am
> >>dissappointed to see you urging the DAANZ committee to reject my GongCon
> >>proposal.
> >>
> >>I am not trying to split the hobby at all.  I am trying to grow the 
>hobby
> >>through diversification.  We need to try new things and appeal to
> >>differrent types of people if we are going to go forward.  I am not 
>trying
> >>to force my ideals of how to run a tournament on others, I am just 
>trying
> >>to offer an alternative.  To my mind, if every tournament ran with a
> >>differrent format, differrent theme and differrent scoring system then
> >>we'd have more fresh ideas and more of an idea about what works and what
> >>doesnt.  People can go to the tourneys they like, and pass on the ones
> >>they dont like.  Give them the choice and let them vote with bums on
> >>seats.
> >>GongCon might not be everyones 'cup of tea' but that does not make it
> >>invalid.  The DAANZ committee needs to represent EVERYONE in the hobby,
> >>not just those who prefer tournaments run a specific way.
> >>
> >>* Poker
> >>The poker tournament was included for a couple of valid reasons :-
> >>
> >>1.  Recruitment - At the NSW Champs 2005, we fired up a game of Texas
> >>Hold'em and a fair number of dippers present were very enthused.  I
> >>figured that if Dip players showed interest in Poker, then it might be 
>the
> >>case that Poker players might show interest in Dip.  There are certainly 
>a
> >>lot of Poker players doing the rounds these days - its become a bit of a
> >>craze.
> >>
> >>2.  Time Limitations - GongCon is limited in many respects by the fact
> >>that it has only ever been held on a 2-day weekend.  To hold a 3-round
> >>tournament therefore means you need to implement a short timedraw (which
> >>many players hate), play the 2nd game well into the night on the 
>Saturday
> >>(which is bad for travellers and younger players) and/or split the 2nd
> >>round over Sat/Sun (which has major problems if players - particularly 
>new
> >>players - have only come for one day).
> >>Many players like the 'long game' version where scoring is SC based and
> >>games are given a long time to reach conclusion.  The 'short game' is
> >>being given a fair run by others with C-Diplo, which some people like, 
>but
> >>its not for everyone and once again I want to offer an alternative.  I 
>am
> >>implementing a weighted game scoring system to make up for the fact we
> >>only have 2 rounds so as to keep the tournament as dynamic as possible.
> >>A poker tournament (which may only run for an hour or two) is a lot less
> >>time committment, so it allows Round 1 to run for longer and fills any
> >>small perceived gap.  You could NOT fit another full round of Dip in 
>that
> >>space.
> >>It is also worth noting that most tournaments I've been to do NOT run 
>into
> >>the night anyway - I do not recall ever having a 'dinner turn' during a
> >>game of Tournament Dip.  The kids often have to be home for dinner or
> >>people have planes to catch.
> >>
> >>* Age Restrictions
> >>Possibly a more controversial issue, but an important one.
> >>The introduction of age restrictions to this tournament is more to do 
>with
> >>the alcohol than anything.  The poker tournament is technically NOT
> >>gambling.  It is a competition, with an entry fee, for which there is a
> >>prize for winning.  Sound familiar ?
> >>Call me old fashioned, but I dont believe that kids should be present at
> >>adult parties where people may become intoxicated.  It sets a bad 
>example
> >>and there are too many things that can go wrong.  Clubs and pubs have 
>age
> >>restrictions for a reason !
> >>Once again, there may be people who are interested in coming to a fun
> >>Party, or BBQ for a few beers who might be favourably exposed to Dip and
> >>get involved (how many times have you seen people show interest when we
> >>play at club venues ?).  These same people might not be interested in a
> >>dry event where they can hang out with 12 year olds.  Its about 
>diversity
> >>and broadening the appeal of dip through differrent styles.
> >>Though it was only a secondary motivation, it is true that there was
> >>controversy at the last GongCon because of the kids and some people have
> >>said they are not interested in playing if the hobby is going to be
> >>overrun by kids.  Are these people wrong ?  Is their preference invalid 
>?
> >>Shouldnt there be an opportunity for those people to play Dip the way 
>they
> >>want to within the DAANZ ?  Or are we all expected to toe the party line
> >>and there is only one correct way ?
> >>Personally, I feel like a paedophile when I'm trying to cajole some 
>young
> >>12 year old boy into doing what I want in a game of Dip.  I'd probably 
>do
> >>better if I brought along a bag of boiled lollies for such intimate
> >>moments....
> >>I know that many in the hobby dont have such morality issues, but I do.  
>I
> >>think it sets a bad example to young kids to see adults lying, even
> >>cheating to get what they want.  It teaches them dangerous skills at a
> >>formative age where they may not be able to draw the line between game
> >>behaviour and real life behaviour.  Once again though, I am not trying 
>to
> >>force this on other tournaments, I'm just offerring an alternative for
> >>people who think/feel like I do.
> >>There are also minor issues of competancy, game quality and 
>manipulation.
> >>We can all claim that kids need some 'guidance' to learn the game and
> >>should be encouraged as they are the 'future' of the hobby.  Along this
> >>line I should bring along my neice to ADC.  She's very interested, 
>though
> >>only learning the game.  I'll need to give her a little bit of help and 
>I
> >>will assist her in writing her orders.  Thats all well and good isnt it 
>?
> >>Oh, I forgot to mention.....my neice is 5 months old.
> >>In all seriousness, we need to draw the line somewhere.  Obviously we 
>are
> >>not going to agree about where exactly that line should exist (Age 6 ? 
>Age
> >>12 ? Age 16 ?) but that doesnt mean I can't have an opinion on the 
>subject
> >>and run GongCon accordingly.
> >>
> >>I'm not asking much of the DAANZ.  I'm planning to run this tournament 
>at
> >>a personal loss and I expect no help at all in running, nor promoting 
>the
> >>event.  The only thing I'm asking is that you SCORE it.  Some people are
> >>motivated to come to tournaments by the Bismark (particularly
> >>inter-staters).  Those handful of people might be the differrence 
>between
> >>the success and failure of this tournament - I believe it has helped the
> >>ANZAC Cup get off the ground.  Dont handicapp me before I've had a 
>chance
> >>to get started.
> >>
> >>In conclusion, I think its important to grow the hobby and this proposal
> >>for GongCon is designed for that purpose.  It just involves growing it 
>in
> >>a differrent direction to others.
> >>We have already lost our Canberra tournaments, the NSW Champs is 
>currently
> >>homeless and in doubt for 2007 while GongCon is on the verge of
> >>extinction.  I am seriously looking at the landscape and would not be
> >>surprised if there isnt a tournament within 6 hours drive for me in 2007
> >>if we keep tearing our tournaments down.
> >>
> >>The ADC / Albury proposal is worth a try, but lets not put all our eggs 
>in
> >>one basket.
> >>
> >>Sincerely,
> >>Greg
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >
>
>
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